I second the comments on the tightness of the waist strap. The only fault I see with the NT basic saddle is the wimpy waist strap. When we ordered our saddles for our climbing program, all have wide web strap and steel tensioning buckles.

I learned how to rig the plastic web to keep it tight. Go through the second opening back to front. Around the farthest opening (past where the plastic buckle is attached) in the front and around the back. Double it back through the first opening front to back. This may help keep the saddle in place.

Also, whenever possible, I rest on a branch rather than hanging in my saddle.

Bob

Tree climbing for all
www.arborquest.org

Patrick asked the question about the amount of loop overlap when the saddle is cinched about the waist. I have wondered what is optimum, more or less? Most pictures I have seen of NT saddles show the loops out to the side, just meeting at the delta, with the delta close to the body. _base_d on the NT sizing chart, my saddle is larger, with the loops coming off closer to the front and the delta extending in front of me when hanging. I've wondered if that means I'd be more comfortable with a smaller saddle. Can anyone offer any empirical sizing recommendations for where the delta loops should attach relative to the body when hanging?

My experience has been that if you have a rather thin _frame_ (i.e. there isn't much of a difference between your hip and waist measurement - often seen more in kids) you don't want much, if any, overlap of the saddle loops. If you have more of a difference between your waist and your hips, you'll probably find more comfort with a little overlap. Seems like people can tolerate a little more slack in the saddle if they have some "natural padding" around their midsection. However, everybody if different, so you might not find this to be true for you. We sometimes even have people who are more comfortable in a smaller saddle, but then use 2 Deltas to close the saddle and leg loop attachments.

Hello to Josh and others--

I ran across an article--a pdf file--that has provided me with MUCH information, part of which is related to this topic. The article is located at
http://www.basarc.org/papers/roperescue/RopeRescue2002.pdf
and is, as the _title_ suggests, about rope rescue. It probably is “more than you ever wanted to know” about the topic. I certainly hope that I am never in need of such techniques being used on me!

On page 25 of the paper, under the heading “Harness Considerations,’ is the statement, “When putting on a harness have the thigh loops as tight as possible, leave the waist loop loose. [This “waist loop” recommendation disagrees with some earlier suggestions in our forum here.] If you do attach to the waist loop [this is explained earlier in the paragraph of the original document], when you pause to rest, a tight waist loop will compress your organs, pushing them against your diaphragm and restrict your breathing.”

This is an excellent and comprehensive paper and probably should be “required reading” for all of us. Many thanks to the author, Kenneth N. Laidlaw.

I’d be interested if Josh (and others) have anything further to report on the original problem.

Climb safely!

Originally posted by Jim W
On page 25 of the paper, under the heading “Harness Considerations,’ is the statement, “When putting on a harness have the thigh loops as tight as possible, leave the waist loop loose.

That is definitely true when using a typical rock climbing harness, where you are not constantly resting on the harness - it is there to catch you or to provide support when you rest. You don't want the harness to move around on your legs, especially if you were to suddenly load the harness - with a fall, for instance.
I don't know the "standard" harness type for cavers, but it sounds like "harness hang syndrome" is a problem for them, too. Perhaps Joe Maher or another caver can comment on this?

With tree climbing, however, the saddle design is different because we're sitting in the saddle the whole time. That's why there is a padded waist belt and leg pads (not just leg loops) and why the leg pads go all the way down to behind your knee. They distribute the weight of your legs and provide support for your legs and back. The risk of harness hang is much less, but it is still present and you need to watch out for it.

Thanks to Jim W for giving me the heads-up about this topic.

Patrick, you're right about the difference between a rock harness and a tree saddle. The recommendations about fit will be different. And BOTH types of harness can be dangerous for extended hang-time where whole body circulation can be impaired. The chair-shape of the New Tribe Saddles probably reduces the risk, or at least extends safe hang-time, because the big thigh pads distribute the load under your whole upper leg. If you were hanging in mere webbing loops, serious vascular constriction could happen much faster. Also, Josh, when our saddle belt binds your ribs, it hurts, but it doesn't impact major blood vessels or vital organs in the way that you fear. Even so, we want you to be comfortable. Read on.

As to the fit of our New Tribe Saddles: They are designed to be cinched snug at the soft part of your waist, above your hipbones. If you start out with our saddle belt low on your hips, it is sure to ride up and become uncomfortable once you're climbing. The legstraps are designed to be loose around the thigh, and the butt straps in back should be let out long enough to keep the legstrap webbing comfortably away from your crotch when you're sitting.

Josh, it could be that your saddle belt is too large for you. The sewn eyes that _link_ to the delta should just meet in front, or be slightly apart. If they overlap, then your belt is too large and it will ride up and compress your ribs. Ouch.

We do find that this rib compression thing happens with some people no matter what size saddle they try. It is less likely to happen with our Work Saddle, because of the wider, thicker pad. Still, the most likely reasons for it to happen are a) the belt is too large, or b) the cinch strap is buckled too loosely. or c) the legstraps are too large (which places the delta too high while hanging, dragging the whole system up on your body).

We will gladly replace a new saddle for a better size, or upgrade to a Work Saddle. What we can't do is trade in your used saddle. We can't resell a saddle that has a history. You would have better luck selling it to a friend who fits it, and then getting a new one that's better suited to you.

What is special about New Tribe Saddles is (after safety) comfort and light weight. If you have a New Tribe Saddle that isn't comfortable, we want to know about it.

I'm glad Josh started this thread. I hope to hear from any of you who are unhappy with the comfort of your New Tribe Saddle, so that we can help you get the rig you want for truly pleasant and safe tree climbing.

Every time we get feedback from users of our gear, we take a new look at our designs and make them better. You have our heartfelt thanks for this.

Cheers, and Happy Climbing,
Sophia