I believe that Leon has the right idea.

If I recall correctly, none other than Don Blair, in his excellent book "Arborist Equipment," strongly recommends screw _link_s because of their safety. (I sure hope I'm remembering correctly--I don't have a copy handy).

If a list is going to be made of acceptable life-support devices, it seems they should be ranked in order according to safety (not convenience, or cost, or color, etc.). That seemingly would force screw _link_s to the top of the list.

Of course, several sources (e.g., web sites for accredited rescue operations, ANSI) must be investigated in order to create the ranked list.

However, at the risk of being accused of throwing a monkey wrench into the works, I again must strongly encourage everyone to consider what would be done here by such specificity: Once we write such details in these STANDARDS, it must be assumed that every standard will be specific and comprehensive.

That means that we can leave no stone unturned--every word in the document must be examined carefully. This will mean an incredible amount of work, probably not possible by a group of loosely organized (no offense!) volunteers who don't have unlimited time and unlimited resources.

Then, before acceptance, the document must carefully be reviewed by people who really know what they are doing--experts with our technology, our practices, and with the law. Now we're almost talking about unlimited money.

Why need we do that? Because then we will have a document that can be used in a court of law. Well, why do we need that? Because it unfortunately probably, at some time, will have to be used there. You can guess why.

I have grave concerns that, as the result of our laudable desire to have a fine document, we are headed down a very slippery and dangerous slope . . . being supported only by some old cotton sash cord and one non-locking carabiner.

It's one thing to have discussions, and make recommendations, about issues such as carabiners on a board such as this; it is another entirely different thing to openly publish those recommendations as standards recommended by a recognized group.

I strongly suggest that this commission regroups and considers its purpose and goals.

Question: Do we really want a comprehensive and rigorous set of legally airtight standards, or do we want a set of guidelines that will enhance our avocation? Your choice.

I think that, in this case, less is more.

Respectfully--

Jim

Jim W...
We've already had that discussion...and I think you may have missed a few posts, I've yet to hear anyone post about taking a fall while using a quick _link_ or snap, but have about autolockers and screw_link_s. I think that if you make a blanket *reccomendation* and ignore completly the other options that you instantly have created the "out of specification" option that said lawer will be looking for.
I dont want to limit options here, and again look at the _title_ of the discussion-not STANDARDS, but rather Accpeted Climbing practices. I would accept the use of a locking snap (though I'd not use one because of the weight), or even a redundant non-locking (and I may start carring some for use with the Garda hitch).
Perhaps order of preference is not a good idea though, and I see where you may be correct there, so howabout we list all possible options (that have merit, dont give me the "tightly wrapped paper clip" option) and list them in no particular order.

Climb Safe!
Icabod

Originally posted by Treeman
RocknRoll-Thanks for that clarification. How about this saying- "See threads- You's deads"! So here is a question along that line.

Should a wrench be used to screw down the screw _link_? Lock it down, so to speak. I think Sherrill catalog says do it (or is he talking about the clevis?). What do you all think about that? Has anyone seen a screw _link_, be it delta or oval, unscrew itself?

Should this be a usage standard? The old addage- "screw down so you don't screw up."

never seen one unscrew by accident, but I carry a old drilled out wrench to hang off the harrness anyways. I tighten them down tight. (i also lube the threads with copper anti-sieze).

I figure if a 10mm oval Maillione Rapide can be used with my 3/8"s transport chain for pulling out a 5000lb modified 78 Bronco from the mud, it can be used for my paltry 180 lbs of weight...lol

any body tried these yet ?
The mini HMS Spring lock karabiner has been designed by the manufacturer as a main attatchment karabiner between ropes and harness. The two spring loaded barrells are free to spin, allieviating the possibillity of the rope passing through the karabiner rotating the twist lock gate to open accidentally. Operation of the spring lock requires the outer barrell to be pushed up over the black inner barrell to get a perfect alignment of the internal mechanism. As pressure is released on the outer barrell allowing it to drop back slowly, a sideway force from the thumb pushes the gate open.
30 kn

Guys, right up front, I'm new to all this. When I first got interested in climbing, I started looking at rec shops at carabiners. I live about 10 miles from Rock Creek Outfitters and about 10 miles (another direction) from the On Rope 1 shop owned by Bruce Smith.

I like the Omega-Pacific auto lock Jake carabiner and bought one. I was playing with it one day and ran a piece of 9mm prusik cord through it an pulled one end with no force or restraint on the opposite end of the cord. The rope twisted the lock to the open position and the carabiner opened, releasing the rope.

Thinking I did something wrong, I tried it again, and again, and again. It did it every time. I went to one of the shops, don't recall which one, and tried it on another Jake; it did the same thing.

I repeated the test on every screw lock I could get my hands on and absolutely none of them opened. So I proceed to buy screw locks and avoided the auto locks with a passion because I could easily demonstrate failures.

After seeing how easy it is to inadvertantly open an autolock, I was stunned to learn that ANSI does not approve the screw locks for tree work. The only problem I've seen with a screw lock was on a Petzl Attache when after a climb I couldn't unscrew it and had to use pliers.

Could it be that ANSI's position is _base_d on early screw lock designs that may have had some problems?

I guess I'm just a little confused by the wide acceptance of auto lockers that are so easily openned?????

Is the Jake a double action or triple action auto locker? I've never used one. Triacts are not easy to open by rope action.

Have you run the same test on a Petzl or a Kong triact biner? I'm not saying you won't be able to get it open by running cord across it but you'll have to work at it. I've had the rope make a good attempt to open the gate on my triacts while climbing but it's never succeeded. Also I always face my gate in, the climbing rope is usually contacting the biner from the outside. This is different then the rock climbing standard for screw gates (down and out) but then again this isn't rock climbing. I know many tree climbers practice down and out gate position, don't think this is a good idea with autolockers.

Ropes can open a screw gate biner, there are many anecdotes from tree climbers about this.
-moss