Split Tail knot advance

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15 years 9 months ago #131847 by treeweasel
Split Tail knot advance was created by treeweasel
Hello,

Okay, I'm throwing in the towel . . . mainly because it is saturated with my sweat from advancing my Blake's knot on straight-up ascents (no help from tree trunk). By the time I get up to my anchor, I'm so exhausted I don't have the energy to cut a limb.

I read that I could use a split tail with a pulley that would automatically advance the Blake's knot when I pushed down on my petzel foot gripper. But I can't get it to work. What am I doing wrong?

Every time I set the split tail up like in the photos with the pulley, I can never pull enough rope down to engage the knot and advance it up. I've tried tying the Blake's as low as possible but with the length of the biner I can't get it low enough on my saddle to advance the knot when I pull down on my foot hold.

The things I read have said this is possible has anyone done this?

I guess I could join Muscles Unlimited and start building up my strength, but dang-it, it is exhausting to pull down on the rope, then quickly shove the knot up then collapse back down into the saddle when you don't have the tree truck to lean against.

This weakling would appreciate any help.

Thank you.

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15 years 9 months ago - 15 years 9 months ago #131850 by Baker
Replied by Baker on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
I tried to reply to this last night, but it didn't go through :S It was late, but I think the gist of what I wanted to say is that you should be able to use a pulley and prussic on a DRT system without using a split tail. I haven't tried it, but I've seen it somewhere.

Additionally, as far as your arms giving out...are you using any type of foot assist? Foot lock, prussic loop, etc.? I like to use an ascender with a foot loop on my down rope. Instead of pulling down with my arms, I push down with my leg(s). By using your legs, you can stand in your foot loop enabling you to advance your blake's hitch with ease.

If you haven't seen it yet, I absolutely recommend Peter Jenkins' TCI video \"Tree Climbing Basics. http://www.treeclimbing.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,18/category_id,13/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,91/

There is also a discussion here: http://www.treeclimbing.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,49/func,view/id,131621/catid,275/

Edit:

I just got back from a climb and I tried the no split tail pulley technique. I attached a pulley (clipped to a short prussic cord with a double ended snap) to my up-line, clipped the pulley around the down line below the B-53, took up the slack and snugged the prussic knot. It worked like a charm. As I pulled on the down line, the pulley tended and advanced the B-53 so well that I didn't have to touch the knot until it was time to come down.

This technique would be handy (no pun intended) for anyone who may have limited hand or upper body strength. Using this system and a foot loop with an ascender, even a one-armed person could easily climb and descend a DRT system


I love learning new stuff - even if it's not really new. Well, it was to me!
Last edit: 15 years 9 months ago by Baker.

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15 years 9 months ago #131851 by treeweasel
Replied by treeweasel on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Thanks Baker,

The link explains that the technique is out there and it really works. Now I just have to get me a Sherrill catalog to view it. I knew I shouldn't have thrown my old one away.

Yes, I have Peter's video. It is great. He taught me the basics very well.

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15 years 9 months ago #131855 by Baker
Replied by Baker on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
I'll try to post some pics of my set up in a couple of days.

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15 years 8 months ago #131937 by treeweasel
Replied by treeweasel on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
I wanted to provide an update since I first posted:

I did succeed in using the Automatic Hitch Advance as shown in Sherrill Catolog page 33 as suggested. And it does take much less strength to ascend. However, I still find myself tiring easily, but that must be my own stamina problem.

I did modify the configuration slightly. Instead of using a bridge from my belt connection over to the down-pulling rope, I used a split tail which hooked to my belt. I still had a \"bridge\" formed from the self-advance pulley under the Blake's B53 acrossing over with a prusik to the other line. But it is easy to release the snap on the pulley when I need to get around a branch.

My only problem was I found myself pulling down on the rope with my hands positioned above the Blake's knot. So I think my split tail is too short! I was using a Bee-line as a split tail on my 7/16 climbing rope, but I think I need more length. There was a time or two when pulling from above the Blake's that I'd nudge the hitch and got a little fright when it slipped down like it's supposed to do.

TW

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15 years 8 months ago #131939 by Baker
Replied by Baker on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Treeweasel,

I also found that the pulley shortened the length of the down rope and I would sometimes jam my hand into the pulley when I reached up. After a little practice and trial and error I learned to tie my Blake's with just the right amount of bridge so that I had a longer slide with the knot, keeping the pulley out of the way, but also keeping the knot within reach to descend. Maybe a longer split tail would help.

If you are using some sort of foot assist like a foot loop or ascender, you really don't have to \"Pull\" that much. Your hands on the rope should just keep you upright . I try to keep my hands in the vicinity of my screw link to avoid getting in the way of the pulley/knot. Sometime I'll just do an elbow hook to stay standing. My foot assist system is a Petzl ascender with a purcell attached as my foot loop.
http://www.geocities.com/r_riversong/Purcell_Prusik_tying_technique.jpg

I climbed yesterday without a pulley (left it in another gear bag) and after only 5 or 6 knot resets I was quite winded. I like my pulley system

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15 years 8 months ago - 15 years 8 months ago #131940 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
treeweasel wrote:

My only problem was I found myself pulling down on the rope with my hands positioned above the Blake's knot. So I think my split tail is too short! I was using a Bee-line as a split tail on my 7/16 climbing rope, but I think I need more length. There was a time or two when pulling from above the Blake's that I'd nudge the hitch and got a little fright when it slipped down like it's supposed to do.


Don't think your split tail is too short. I advocate pulling the down rope with one hand above the hitch and one below it. As you pull down on the rope the lower hand slides the hitch up. Pull a little, slide the hitch up a little, pull a little more, slide the hitch up a little more until your legs are fully extended on the Pantin/footloop/down rope. Make sure you have your feet under your butt when you're \"standing\" on the rope and pulling down with your arms. Your legs should be doing most of the work, arms are working but don't have to be working that hard. Moving the hitch up shouldn't be requiring much extra energy. If it is you need to modify your overall climbing motion.

Beeline is not great for a split tail/Blakes combination. You should be using a rope of the same diameter and similar construction as your climbing rope. Beeline is going to tend to grab and lock on your 7/16\" climbing rope. THe hitch shouldn't slip down when you \"nudge\" it. You'll find the hitch will behave much better for ascent or descent if you use same construction/same diameter split tail material as your climbing rope.
-moss
Last edit: 15 years 8 months ago by moss.

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15 years 8 months ago #131941 by treeweasel
Replied by treeweasel on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Baker,

Thanks for sharing the Purcell Prusik. I'm not sure I understand how you use the Purcell and the Petzl ascender together?

I am using a Petzl ascender for one foot. You must be using the Purcell as a loop for your other foot? But how is it connected? I can't visualize it, sorry?

Actually, when I first looked at the Purcell I thought of using it like a Double Daisy Rope lanyard. Are you familar with the Double Daisy? Wouldn't the Purcell do the same thing? Just attach a carabiner to the middle of the loop formed by the prusik knot. It seems like it would be simpler as a long lanyard than the Double Daisy. What do you think?

TW

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15 years 8 months ago #131942 by treeweasel
Replied by treeweasel on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Moss,

Thanks for the motion tips. I do still need to practice the rhythm, I think that's what is tiring me out so. I'm using too much arm. I'll try your suggestions with hands above and below.

Also you wrote:

\"Beeline is not great for a split tail/Blakes combination. You should be using a rope of the same diameter and similar construction as your climbing rope. Beeline is going to tend to grab and lock on your 7/16\" climbing rope. THe hitch shouldn't slip down when you \"nudge\" it. You'll find the hitch will behave much better for ascent or descent if you use same construction/same diameter split tail material as your climbing rope.\"

You are exactly right, the Beeline was too tight. My 7/16ths rope is new. I wanted to try it because of its lighteness, but I'm not used to it yet. I felt a lot safer with the 1/2 inch rope.

I guess I'm still \"learning the ropes\". Pun intended. I wonder, did that saying come from loggers or boatmen?

I learned that you can not easily by a short piece of the same size climbing rope. That's why I bought a Beeline. I found a local Arbor Supply place and they don't cut off small sections of climbing rope. Is this common practice?

I bought 150' of Prolite 24 7/16ths. So, should I cut off 4' of my climbing rope to use as a Split Line?

TW

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15 years 8 months ago - 15 years 8 months ago #131943 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Wespur sells by climbing rope the foot and other mail order suppliers do too. Try calling New Tribe too and see if they'll help you out. You should be able to get what you need. My local arborist supplier keeps a spool of 11mm Fly to sell by the foot, I guess mileage varies per dealer
-moss
Last edit: 15 years 8 months ago by moss.

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15 years 8 months ago - 15 years 8 months ago #131944 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
treeweasel wrote:

Baker,

Thanks for sharing the Purcell Prusik. I'm not sure I understand how you use the Purcell and the Petzl ascender together?

I am using a Petzl ascender for one foot. You must be using the Purcell as a loop for your other foot? But how is it connected? I can't visualize it, sorry?


Speaking of which, my favorite DdRT foot ascending technique is to use a Pantin on the right foot and a single loop footlock on the left. Works great, you can move the left foot right up next to the Pantin and stand on the down rope with both feet locked side-by-side. Then move the Pantin up for the next pull, followed by the single footlock, repeat until you're where you want to go. Don't forget to keep your knees together while your standing up on the rope, keeps them happy.
-moss

Combo Pantin footlock technique
Last edit: 15 years 8 months ago by moss.

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15 years 8 months ago #131945 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
treeweasel wrote:

I bought 150' of Prolite 24 7/16ths. So, should I cut off 4' of my climbing rope to use as a Split Line?
TW


Do you need a split tail at this point?

I'd go buy some 11mm arb rope by the foot before cutting the 150'. You don't need to match the exact same brand rope. It's good to have a color difference to differentiate the split tail from the climbing rope.
-moss

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15 years 8 months ago #131951 by treeweasel
Replied by treeweasel on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
Great foto Moss, thanks.

That's a good question: Do I really need a Split Tail at this point?

I guess I'm just experimenting with a number of configurations to get the feel of several. Although admittedly, I haven't spent enough time mastering any single method yet. I did find it a little irritating last time I had to untie my knots in order to climb to a higher anchor.

Although, I have yet to \"snap\" out of a first anchor by disconnecting a Split Tail, my understanding is that it will go much quicker. But I haven't done it yet; it just made sense reading about it.

TW

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15 years 8 months ago - 15 years 8 months ago #131953 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Split Tail knot advance
treeweasel wrote:

That's a good question: Do I really need a Split Tail at this point?

I guess I'm just experimenting with a number of configurations to get the feel of several. Although admittedly, I haven't spent enough time mastering any single method yet. I did find it a little irritating last time I had to untie my knots in order to climb to a higher anchor.

Although, I have yet to \"snap\" out of a first anchor by disconnecting a Split Tail, my understanding is that it will go much quicker. But I haven't done it yet; it just made sense reading about it.

TW


If you set your next pitch with the other end of your climbing rope then all you have to do is untie the Blake's on your first anchor to move up. I agree though that a split tail makes it easier to reset your anchors going up or traversing. I climbed for two years trad/Blakes before starting to work split tails into my system on a regular basis. One reason I liked tying in traditional is that only two carabiners were required to be tied in to both ends of my rope (double anchored). I also hated the way the split tail carabiner would flop around as I was climbing. When I use a split tail for a Blake's now I tie the split tail directly to my harness delta to avoid the extra carabiner and eliminate the \"floppping\" problem.

In this photo you can see my split tail (orange rope) attached to the harness delta, it's tied around a plastic thimble on the screwlink. The photo is of an SRT setup but the split tail is ready for use for DRT.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3179/2769088101_b5862dae0a.jpg?v=0

-moss
Last edit: 15 years 8 months ago by moss.

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15 years 8 months ago #131955 by oldtimer
Replied by oldtimer on topic Re:Split Tail Material Sources
I am with Moss in not cutting a piece of your climbimg rope for this purpose. A couple of split tails is a good addition to your climbing gear but there are other alternatives to get one that will do the job and save your long rope in one piece.

Sherill offers several split tail ropes at a reasonable price (cheaper than cutting your new climbing rope).

Here is a link
http://gear.sherrilltree.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit

Another cheaper alternative is buy some 10 feet of accessory cord (8 mm works well for me) and tie your own split tail using one of the regular knots appropriate for the task and that set up can be very low cost anything from around 50-90cents per foot and higher up as fancy as you want to get.

Look at some alternatives below.
Prusiks and accessory cords
http://gear.sherrilltree.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit

If you are planning to attend the 2008 Rendezvous in Atlanta in about four of weeks Some of the gear manufactures will be there offering climbing supplies at discounted rates (sometimes they do that).

Looking forward to the Rendezvous!:laugh:

I bought 150' of Prolite 24 7/16ths. So, should I cut off 4' of my climbing rope to use as a Split Line?


A \"4 feet piece\" is not long enough for a split tail. You will need around 8 to 10 feet piece for a good working split tail so that you can tie the needed knots, anything shorter is just wasted rope. It will not work for anything.

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