Basics of each technique?

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15 years 5 months ago #132830 by Davej
Basics of each technique? was created by Davej
1. DDRT -- rope over limb, both ends to climber who uses a hitch or an ascender to advance at a 1:2 rate and usually uses the hitch to descend.

2. Footlock -- rope over limb, both ends to climber who uses a hitch or an ascender or both on both ropes to advance at a 1:1 rate and usually installs a descender to descend.

3. SRT -- rope over limb, one end to climber who uses a hitch or ascender or both to advance at a 1:1 rate and always installs a descender to descend.

4. DRT -- identical to SRT except with two ropes for redundant safety.

???

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15 years 5 months ago #132832 by Culinarytracker
Replied by Culinarytracker on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
I've never seen reference to #4. DRT is usually referring to the secured footlock, I think the abbreviation SFL would solve the DdRT/DRT confusion.

So maybe we could call #4 DSRT or 2SRT

And since I usually climb with both ends of my rope with 2 rope split tails, a lanyard with a mechanical split tail and a couple webbing slings; I think I am climbing 3DdRTst1m+2ws! (just kidding, it's a goofy morning around here :) )

I don't know your goal in trying to define these, but I've thought of a few ammendments.

in DdRT, a hitch IS usually used to descend, however I think it should be highly encouraged to throw a munter hitch or other hardware of some kind under the blakes to increase speed and reduce rope on rope friction. So it could \"...and uses the hitch and/or descender to descend.\"

Maybe that's too past basics, just seems like good policy to me.

Carl

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15 years 5 months ago #132851 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Basics of each technique?

Culinarytracker wrote:
I've never seen reference to #4. DRT is usually referring to the secured footlock, I think the abbreviation SFL would solve the DdRT/DRT confusion.

So maybe we could call #4 DSRT or 2SRT


I'm pretty sure DRT is an established technique used by serious rock climbers. Then tree climbers hear the term and try to use it. I think you are right that SFL is mistakenly being called DRT. Maybe that isn't a mistake but just legitimate reuse?

in DdRT, a hitch IS usually used to descend, however I think it should be highly encouraged to throw a munter hitch or other hardware of some kind under the blakes to increase speed and reduce rope on rope friction.


I plan to go that route, or at least try it, but is it standard practice?

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15 years 5 months ago #132852 by oldtimer
Replied by oldtimer on topic Re:Basics of each technique?

3. SRT -- rope over limb, one end to climber who uses a hitch or ascender or both to advance at a 1:1 rate and always installs a descender to descend.

4. DRT -- identical to SRT except with two ropes for redundant safety.


Where did you read this info from? Wikipedia by any chance?

SRT and DRT are two completely different techniques not only in the type of gear used but on the efficiency and use of each.

For SRT the Climber use \"Mechanical Ascenders\" (like Petzl or CMI) The climber is on one static rope that does not move ( up or down) while the climber moves up or down the rope. One end of the rope is either tied to base of the tree( Trunk Tie) or choked around a large Branch (Top tied). You have to switch over to a descending piece of gear like Figure-8, a rack, or a rappel device or similar gear and all the ascending gear has to be removed from the descending rope in order to get down.

For DRT the climber uses a \"Friction hitch\" like a Blake's or similar. Both sides of the rope are moving as the climber ascend or descends. The entire rope is used and you can climb on either side of the rope (Double ended climb or Extended Climb) The climber does not have to switch over to a descending devise and he can descend with the same Blake hitch or install a descender if the climber prefers but it is not necessary.

So there are many differences between SRT and DRT or DbRT to just say \"DRT is identical to SRT except with two ropes for redundant safety\" :blush: :blush: :blush:

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15 years 5 months ago #132856 by Culinarytracker
Replied by Culinarytracker on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
OK, this has been bugging me Because I've heard so many confusing conversations about these darn abbreviations.

I thought I finally had it down.
DdRT = Dynamic Doubled Rope Technique
DRT = Doubled Rope Technique (not dynamic therefore static, AKA: SFL)
SRT = Single Rope Technique

And I thought that checking with the great Tree Climbers Companion was going to prove me right. But I was wrong.

Jepson first divides everything into two categories
Static and Dynamic.

Under Dynamic there are:
ALT (alternate lanyard technique) I think most of us would qualify for this once we get into the tree. Whether using both ends of the rope, or one end and a lanyard or whatever. Even a lanyard and a webbing loop system I mentioned in another post would qualify for ALT

Body Thrusting (Blakes hitch climbing with feet on the trunk of the tree)

Modified Body Thrusting (Blakes hitch system with a foot ascender) Whether it's footlocking the tail, single footlocking the tail, prusik loop or foot ascender climbing the Dynamic Doubled Rope without getting a foot on the trunk.

Under Static there are:
Secured Footlock (SFL we all know so well)

SRT (this and ALT are the only ones Jepson lists abbreviations for)


I have thought that I had a preference on this whole set of abbreviations, but the more and more I think about it, the more I wish Dynamic and Double didn't both start with a D.
SFL is my preference over DRT, but it'll still be confusing no mater what. That's my final opinion :)

Carl

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #132857 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
1. DdRT -- Double(d)RopeTechnique -- rope over limb, both ends to climber who uses a hitch or an ascender to advance at a 1:2 rate and usually uses the hitch to descend.

2. SFL -- Secured FootLock -- rope over limb, both ends to climber who uses a hitch or an ascender or both on both ropes to advance at a 1:1 rate and usually installs a descender to descend.

3. SRT -- SingleRopeTechnique -- rope over limb, one end to climber who uses a hitch or ascender or both to advance at a 1:1 rate and always installs a descender to descend.

4. DRT -- DoubleRopeTechnique -- to an arborist this term implies either DdRT or Secured Footlock. To an alpine climber this term implies a dual-SRT setup using two ropes for redundant safety.

???
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by Davej. Reason: DDRT should be DdRT

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #132859 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
It's a Tower of Babel, many have tried to resolve technical tree climbing terminology across rope disciplines and now they're locked up in padded cells.

In rec climbing as taught by TCI trained instructors DRT is doubled rope friction hitch climbing technique w/2:1 mechanical advantage.

In arborist/work climbing the above is described as DdRT or DRT. Some rec climbers have started to use the term DdRT. I use either, depends who I'm talking to.

Secured footlock is SFL

Single rope technique is SRT

-moss
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by moss.

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15 years 5 months ago #132860 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
Culinarytracker wrote:

I've never seen reference to #4. DRT is usually referring to the secured footlock, I think the abbreviation SFL would solve the DdRT/DRT confusion.


DRT is so confused maybe we should just accept the fact that it is ambiguous? I'm not looking to create any new terms -- just to identify the existing ones!:woohoo:

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15 years 5 months ago #132861 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Basics of each technique?

Culinarytracker wrote:
[per Jepson]Under Dynamic there are:
ALT (alternate lanyard technique)[...]
Body Thrusting (Blakes hitch climbing with feet on...tree)
Modified Body Thrusting (Blakes hitch system with a foot ascender)[...]


I don't know why he throws ALT into the mix. Isn't that almost freeclimbing except with a lanyard or maybe a double-ended lanyard?

Dynamic is such a vague term.

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #132862 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
Davej wrote:

I don't know why he throws ALT into the mix. Isn't that almost freeclimbing except with a lanyard or maybe a double-ended lanyard?


It's not free climbing, you're always tied in, just alternating your lanyards. You can use your main climbing rope as one side of the alt lanyard equation and a lanyard as the other side, or you can use two lanyards, or a double ended long rope or lanyard. It's still the same technique, typically used when you can climb with your feet on the tree in conifers.
-moss
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by moss.

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15 years 5 months ago #132864 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
Davej wrote:

DRT is so confused maybe we should just accept the fact that it is ambiguous? I'm not looking to create any new terms -- just to identify the existing ones!:woohoo:


It's not very confused at all if you keep the acronym/terminology within definitions of tree climbing technique. It's either DRT or DdRT, in tree climbing there's no other technique that uses the acronym DRT.

DdRT is just a more refined acronym, any experienced tree climber will know exactly what you mean by DRT, unless they're so old-school that they don't climb using a rope/friction hitch setup. Not every experienced tree climber will know what you mean by DdRT. You're witnessing the evolution of tree climbing terminology in progress.
-moss

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #132871 by Culinarytracker
Replied by Culinarytracker on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
You know, I just realized while reading this conversation that when I am talking with my climbing friend, who knows way less of the lingo than those of us that hang out here and talk about it all the time, I don't have any problem with confusion at all.

When talking about Dynamic Double Rope Technique I guess I always refer to the friction hitch or fancy toy being used.
This is even better than using the abbreviation because it lets you know more about the climb.
Eg. \"I was climbing up the Sycamore on a Blake's Hitch,\" puts a different picture in mind than \"I was climbing on a VT,\" or whatever they may be using.

The SRT guys are always \"frogging\" or texas stýle etc...

Anyway, I could babble on, but I guess my epiphany was that the abbreviations might not only be confusing things that drive people into padded rooms muttering letters into the corner, But they may also be very limiting to the conversation to start with.

So maybe you shouldn't tell me that you climbed DRT -OR- DdRT because I'd like to know more about your personal climbing technique anyway. (I'm talking to everyone here)


Carl
(climbing \"Carl Stýle\" from now on)
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by Culinarytracker. Reason: _removing_ _annoying_ _things_

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #132873 by moss
Replied by moss on topic Re:Basics of each technique?
Culinarytracker wrote:

So maybe you shouldn't tell me that you climbed DRT -OR- DdRT because I'd like to know more about your personal climbing technique anyway. (I'm talking to everyone here)
Carl
(climbing \"Carl Stýle\" from now on)


Definitely. I only use the terms DRT or SRT functionally (communication in the field) when I'm making a decision on which approach will be required for the tree I'm considering . Specifying DdRT over DRT for communication in the field is useless.

Overheard real dialog at the tree:

\"Hmm, I think I'm going to do the initial ascent SRT, there's no way I'm going to be able to isolate that branch and 80 ft. straight up is more than I want to ascend DRT today\"

or

\"That's a sweet DRT climb, easy limb to isolate and both legs of the rope should reach the ground easily\"

-moss
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by moss.

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15 years 4 months ago - 15 years 4 months ago #132882 by Davej
Replied by Davej on topic Re:Basics of each technique?

Culinarytracker wrote:
So maybe you shouldn't tell me that you climbed DRT -OR- DdRT because I'd like to know more about your personal climbing technique anyway. (I'm talking to everyone here)

On other boards I get confused because the pros use SFL so much and then they switch over to something else once they have gotten into the tree.

Moss wrote:
\"Hmm, I think I'm going to do the initial ascent SRT, there's no way I'm going to be able to isolate that branch and 80 ft. straight up is more than I want to ascend DRT today\"

But isolating a branch applies to both DdRT and SFL so I'm never sure which they are implying.
Last edit: 15 years 4 months ago by Davej.

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